Gets to know....Joe Berlinger

S3E19 Joe Berlinger 


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[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome[00:00:00] Music intro 





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Simon K: Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the collective whisper podcast. We have a fabulous guest for you on the show today, but before we get to that guest, we hope you're all keeping well. And we would like you, please share the show, please subscribe, please give us a review. We hope you're enjoying the content and this guest is going to be very interesting. 


So let's get to it. 


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Simon K: My guest today is the remarkable Joe Berlinger, a true pioneer in the world of documentary filmmaking, whose career spans over three decades of groundbreaking storytelling, was an Academy Award and eight time Emmy nominated filmmaker, as well as a recipient of the Peabody, DGA, and [00:01:00] Sundance Awards. 


His unique ability to blend gripping narratives with a powerful focus on social justice has made him one of the most influential voices in the documentary genre today. You probably know Joe from his iconic true crime films and series including The Paradise Lost Trilogy, which not only captivated audiences but also played a crucial role in the release of the wrongfully convicted West Memphis 3. 


This trilogy set the gold standard for true crime documentaries revealing the flaws in our justice system and inspiring justice reform. Subs His film Metallica, Some Kind of Monster, offered an unprecedented look into one of the world's biggest rock bands, breaking down stereotypes and redefining the rockumentary genre by exposing their personal struggles and creative challenges. 


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Simon K: Joe has also been a powerhouse on Netflix, where 16 of his projects have debuted in the platform's top 10, often at number one. His works such as Conversations with a Killer, The Ted Bundy Tapes, and Madoff, The Monster of Wall Street has captivated millions worldwide, combining deep investigative journalism with masterful storytelling.[00:02:00] 


nto the infamous and unsolved: 1996

From advancing justice reform and aiding in the release of six wrongfully convicted individuals, to playing a pivotal role in the U. S. acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide through a film intent to destroy. Joe's impact extends far beyond the screen. He's often called the gold standard of socially conscious true crime filmmaking. 


A description that speaks to his unyielding commitment to truth and justice. 


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Simon K: Today, we're going to explore Joe's extraordinary journey from his beginnings in storytelling and his creative process to the incredible behind the scenes stories of his iconic works. We'll discuss his passion for using documentaries as a vehicle for change. 


sit down with a true legend. [: 00:03:00

[00:03:01] Welcome to the show Joe 


Simon K: Joe Berlinger, welcome to the show. 


Joe Berlinger: Thanks, glad to be with you. 


I 


Simon K: was just telling Joe before the show there that I'm a big fan of his work and I've been following his kind of over the years on and off. 


It's good to see him back on the TV again and everything. You have a fascinating new show coming out next week on Netflix. Can you tell us a little about that? 


Joe Berlinger: Yeah, November 25th, we we have airing Cold Case, Who Killed John Benet Ramsey? And it's a fascinating look at this iconic cold case. You know, one of the reasons I did it is I think the case can finally be solved after 28 years if the Boulder Police would only just do the DNA testing that the family has been asking for decades. 


Simon K: It's a very interesting case because we've seen it come up in, different things over the years and There's lots of different opinions about the, child murders and child abductions like the Madeline McCann thing. So it's quite interesting after all this time for it to come back into the realm of modern kind of media, isn't it? 


Joe Berlinger: Definitely. 


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Joe Berlinger: And the main reason I [00:04:00] wanted to do it is that there's such a misperception about this case. You know, so many people still think the parents were guilty, you know, at the time Shortly after the murders the parents became suspects because One of the police officers at the scene got a weird feeling that john wasn't acting right And that led the police department to have this tunnel vision that maybe the parents were not maybe that they were utterly convinced The parents were guilty and they fed a lot of false and defamatory In my opinion defamatory stories to the press and leaked false information to the press. 


And that led all of America to believe that the parents had killed this little girl. And, you know, Gallup did a poll back then and 70 percent of America thought that the the family was guilty and the exact opposite is true. And that's hindered the, that false perception has hindered the 


You know, the investigation 


for [: 00:05:00

Simon K: It sometimes goes that way, doesn't it? That, the family is always the first people that everyone looks at. And, in those cases, when they're looking for body language and, are the family grieving? Are they mourning? How would they react? Sometimes people form opinions really quickly, don't they? 


Joe Berlinger: Oh, yeah. In this case, they formed an opinion that morning that he wasn't acting properly. And you know, I always believe you have to follow the evidence because who knows how anyone is going to react in a horrible situation where. The unthinkable has happened. It's the day after Christmas and your beautiful six year old child was brutally sexually assaulted and murdered in the basement of your home. 


by an intruder. How is anybody going to act in that case? You know, 


Simon K: the other side of it as well as the whole beauty pageant thing, because some people wouldn't agree with this anyway, they'd be saying, well, when you come from that kind of world, maybe there's a lot of pressure put on children. 


And also it seems like they're kind of making children into adults and there's always talks of sexual abuse. So it really muddies the waters, doesn't it? 


Joe Berlinger: [: 00:06:00

First of all, these pageants weren't big and massive. Secondly it was coming from JonBenet. JonBenet wanted to participate in these beauty pageants. She was a very outgoing, you know, mature for her years, young girl who enjoyed the, enjoyed doing it. And her mother was and she was getting over ovarian, stage four ovarian cancer, and she had no idea whether she was going to live for the next six months, let alone six or 10 years, and so she wanted to have an activity with her daughter that her daughter wanted to do to then make the conclusion, well, John Benet participates in beauty pageants, the father, you know, Has pictures in his office of her and beauty [00:07:00] pageants. 


Therefore he's sexually abusing his daughter and they murdered their daughter. It's just, how do you make that leap without any hard evidence? And there, there is no hard evidence against the family. I mean, if you look at the autopsy report, you know, it's clear that this girl was tortured in a brutal way while she was still alive. 


And it just defies the whole idea. You know, the, the theory is that, or the police theory was that over a bedwetting incident, Patsy Ramsey just lost control and accidentally killed her. And then they staged this crime scene to cover it up. But that, that just defies logic from so many aspects, including the autopsy report, which shows that she was, you know, this poor young girl had a a around her neck that the perpetrator. 


ally think the learning that [: 00:08:00

for watching. Slowly, because she had petechial hemorrhaging in the eyes and in the heart, which demonstrates slow strangulation, do we really think that's a response to a bedwetting incident? It's just, it just defies logic, you know? 


Simon K: I think in those cases as well, 


sometimes people say, Oh, well, maybe there was a situation that got out of control. 


And I know there was also, I haven't, obviously I haven't watched the documentary yet, but when they talk about the other family members and everything, so there's always suspicion, but you know, when they look at the other kids and say they couldn't have done it, but in your case, when you investigate it, you kind of go well the mother and father couldn't have done it either because they had no priors. 


We're not sociopaths, you know? 


Joe Berlinger: Yeah, the [: 00:09:00

Simon K: We live in this world now of internet sleuths 


so you could be investigating a case and you go, maybe you talk to an FBI informer, you talk to a lawyer and you get firsthand evidence, but people nowadays on the net are just putting, one and one together and getting five. And unfortunately they're very biased. Sometimes they want one character to be innocent and one character to be guilty, don't 


they? 


n who is innocent or in this [: 00:10:00

So I always ask myself what's, what good can come out of me covering the case? But the problem with the genre is a lot of people just view it as entertainment. And they go down rabbit holes and they dissect the case and they play armchair sleuths. And a lot of armchair sleuths have been helpful in cases, but also a lot of armchair sleuths And whether we're making true crime or whether we're consuming true crime, you always have to remember that there's a real victim. 


o do it for good reasons and [: 00:11:00

Is this a genre that I'm, contributing to this madness You know because I am one of the more popular purveyors of this kind of material, but I hate it when people like You know, don't look at the evidence and just go down these wild rabbit holes. 


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Simon K: We'll come back to this story, but I just want to go back a little bit to you, how your career kind of began. 


And what was your interest in storytelling? Was it in that medium of television? Did you always want to go into that? 


Joe Berlinger: I wish I could tell you I was like Steven Spielberg, who I picked up a camera when I was 10. And, started making super eight movies. And I knew I always wanted to be a filmmaker. 


nest. When I was a teenager, [: 00:12:00

And it just struck me so deeply, I mean, it disturbs anybody who sees it. If it doesn't disturb you, you should, go see a psychiatrist, but that's another story. But you know, for the most part, anybody who sees that Holocaust footage. Is disturbed by it, but I was really disturbed. I couldn't get it out of my head. 


he Germans were evil and did [: 00:13:00

So I really wanted to understand how people could do this to one another, and so I, by the time I graduated from college, I was fluent in German and, I was no longer that obsessed with the Holocaust, but I was fluent in German and wanted to use that skill as a career. So I was looking for any career that would send me to Germany and use my language skills. 


And it just so happened, I got hired by a big New York ad agency called Ogilvy and Mather to go work in their German office. Cause I spoke a few languages, especially German and they needed a young American who spoke German. And So the first time I was ever on a film set was shooting an American Express commercial in Germany. 


unior man on the totem pole. [: 00:14:00

When we had a campaign idea to shoot documentary style commercials and we hired the famous documentarians, Albert and David Masels, who did Salesman and Gray Gardens and Gimme Shelter. And I kind of hit it off with them. And so they hired me to go work for them more as their marketing person than as a filmmaker, but I used it as a film school, learned everything I could about documentary. 


ago. So as you can see, it's [: 00:15:00

I look back and think about all the adventures I've had as a documentarian. Because you have a camera in hand, you get to enter into people's worlds. Whether it's a Metallica at a time of crisis or, the John Benet case that I just did or Paradise Lost, you just get to, you just get to experience the world in a whole other way. 


And it's been an incredible career. 


Simon K: I was mistaken when I said earlier, the first time I saw your work was with a Metallica documentary because I had seen the Paradise Lost and I think I turned it on, on Channel 4 or some cable station and just started watching from like midway through and I was like, wow, this is amazing. 


ay he directs and the way he [: 00:16:00

Can't you? 


Joe Berlinger: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been greatly influenced by other people's work as well. 


Simon K: With the Paradise Lost, of course, that was a very dark subject and, the whole. scene of the documentaries were kind of dark with the rock music. There was a message coming through there, that just because you'd listen to this music, just because you're in this world doesn't make you a sociopath or a killer. 


Even for you making that was quite difficult because it was a different style, wasn't it? Using that dark imagery as well. 


is absurd, since when does, [: 00:17:00

And it's also illogical 'cause Metallica music has nothing to do with devil worshiping. There is a branch of heavy metal that's, that's more satanic oriented, but Metallica has nothing to do with devil worshiping or anything like that. So the whole idea was insane. But more importantly, anyone should read anything they want to and listen to any music they want to without fear of being called a murderer, which is just crazy. 


So the people can understand [: 00:18:00

You had to see the crime, 


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Simon K: and then when you moved on to Metallica's Some Kind of Monster, which is, is an amazing documentary, it was very different from the other stuff, wasn't it? Because, of course Paradise Lost, the fans who weren't Metallica fans were introduced to the music, but for you as well, then there was something there that kind of drew you towards working with them, wasn't there? 


And it wasn't true crime. 


ecame friends with Metallica [: 00:19:00

And so a friendship developed in particular, I became very friendly with Lars, the drummer who loved Paradise Lost. And if Lars wasn't, the founder of one of the biggest bands in the world, he would be, a film producer cause he loves film. And so we started talking about doing something about the band, and it just was a bunch of conversation. 


e to slap on the back of the [: 00:20:00

Cause that was the business back then. And so all we were really intending to do for that film was to come out and shoot a little B roll of a very commercial project of them going into the studio so that we could create a little short film to be added to that CD of what would eventually become St. 


Anger. But as I landed in San Francisco. And I called Lars and said, Hey, I'm here. Let's start. He said, Oh, I forgot to tell you, Jason quit the band. I'm not sure there's a record. The band's falling apart. Sorry, man. Sorry you made the trip out here, because, there's not going to be any filming. 


I convinced them to, let us [: 00:21:00

Let's see where it goes. And that ended up being this three year journey of filming some kind of monster. I think if we had thought of it in advance as some premeditated idea, That we were going to make a film about them going into therapy, I don't think the film ever would have happened, but just I saw an opportunity, I pushed my way in. 


And it became this incredible film, so I think that one of the reasons the film worked so well, it was just a happy accident, 


Simon K: because it has that feel as well when you watch it, that even though you know the film is finished, it has that feel all the time even will the documentary even get finished? 


Because, James is dealing with his own issues, Lars is kind of pushing things, but they're biting at each other. And for you, it must have been very difficult to be around that and not feel in the way, no? 


Joe Berlinger: Yeah, it's amazing that they let the cameras roll, to be honest with you. 


Because heavy metal music, I [: 00:22:00

I think it was incredibly brave that they let the film, go and play. In fact, at one point we agreed to show them a cut because after three years they hadn't seen anything and we were about to finish the film and send it off to Sundance. And, technically speaking, we had final cut on the film, but they controlled the music rights. 


plays and There's not a word [: 00:23:00

I mean just total silence and we're like thinking oh my god They hate the film and we went into a room and they start dissecting Well, we can't show our fans that we paid rob trujillo a million dollars. We can't show We can't show Lars is auctioning off his basquiat at christie's for Millions of dollars we can't show this can't show that Every film every scene in the film was like they were nervous and nervous It was getting dissected and although Lars was actually pretty quiet, he was the least concerned about it. 


It was sometimes the managers, sometimes other members of Metallica, people with vested interests were kind of freaking out about the film. And I'm seeing this cause at this point I know we have something special that can inspire people. And that would be a really positive film. And I'm seeing this dream start to crumble before my eyes. 


come over him because Bruce [: 00:24:00

This is a truthful film. It hurts to watch. I don't think I'll ever watch it again, but we either lock this film away and never show it like cocksucker blues, the famous, Rolling Stones documentary that was, banned for a long time. I think it still may be banned. I don't remember the status, but we either lock this film away and never show it like cocksucker blues, Or we let these guys make whatever film they want to make, because it's the truth. 


f clarity and said, You know [: 00:25:00

And they walked out and that was that. And they didn't ask for a single frame to be changed. And I think that is incredibly courageous. And that decision stood the test of time. I mean, many people consider this one of the greater rock and roll films ever made. I can't tell you how many people in music have come up to me over the years, other band, like well known people, like I don't want to name drop, but like some serious other world famous musicians who have come up to me and said, thank you for making that film because it gave our band the permission to talk about some of these issues. 


ade a real mark, and I think [: 00:26:00

Simon K: I think even with yourself coming out with the book afterwards, This Monster Lives, it was nearly like your own form of therapy after dealing with the whole thing for three years, wasn't it? Because you were all involved. It was like a team effort to make the movie, but it takes its toll on everybody. And it's hard to watch for them, I suppose. 


But even for you being there, you know? and being a team with Bruce as well. 


Joe Berlinger: Yeah, I mean, really what happened was, Bruce and I had made, we were very young, I was 28. He was five years older than me, I was 28 when we made Brothers Keeper. It was immediately successful. Your first film goes to Sundance, wins a prize, gets all this positive attention. 


a little bit. And so we were [: 00:27:00

And we both were just having a hard time, like being a team and wanting to do our own thing. So we had kind of broken up before. Metallica before that film was made and in fact i'm the guy who went out to san francisco and started making metallica by myself as When we thought it was just a little 20 minute promo and because bruce and I had broken up as a partnership in a Not a pleasant way. 


I were dealing with You know [: 00:28:00

We'd go home at night back to our hotel And have our own therapy to talk, we talked through our own issues and try to come up with a way that we could work together, essentially we, I was reacting to being joined at the hip with somebody like after Brothers Keeper, and [00:29:00] especially after Paradise Lost, nobody wanted to hire just one of us to make a film. 


It was always we got to hire the two of you because we don't know which of you is actually the guy who Did the magic. And that just didn't feel good to me. I wanted to have my own career and I wanted Bruce to have his own career. And so, using the Metallica therapy sessions we realized, I mean none of this I could have told you prior to Metallica. 


I just was, my ego got a little out of control and I broke up the relationship. And you know I realized I didn't handle it right. Brought Bruce back into the fold and then we worked out, You Function together so that sometimes we can make films together and sometimes we can make films separately. 


So it was you know, the Therapy sessions were good for me as well. 


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Simon K: You have over 16 Netflix projects So what do you think has made your work resonate so strongly with the Netflix audience? 


Joe Berlinger: I don't know man You know in the old days like Brothers Keeper which we actually had to self distribute. 


It won a [: 00:30:00

Bruce and I would high five each other like we died and went to heaven like oh my god 400 people saw our film this weekend now I squeezed something out on Netflix and Literally a hundred million people see it. It's just mind boggling to me. So You know, I think documentaries in general have become very popular, obviously. 


I'd like to think I've had a hand in that, along with my colleagues, there are a lot of people who have made great documentaries that have helped further the genre. I'd like to, obviously true crime has never been more popular, and that's an area I've been doing for 30 years before the phrase true crime even was a thing. 


ething about the combination [: 00:31:00

Simon K: there are also, there is some controversy with Netflix documentaries because we've seen in the media recently where people have been talking about, they changed the narrative To be more entertaining in some shows, not your shows, but in other shows, I won't name any names, but there's been some documentaries where they've had, let's say, a show that's been edited and then when they show the edits in another show, it. 


Paints a different picture. So how do you get around that from your part? Like where Netflix executives will say, Oh, could you change this? Do you have total control? 


Joe Berlinger: I have done enough work for them and have enough stature in the business that I can't say that I have final cut, but if I really object to a note, they will give me notes. 


re talking about, where they [: 00:32:00

Because they're, they're very much concerned about, You know, one of the metrics net netflix likes to use is not just how many people watch the show But how many people complete the show like, the binging You know binging is the holy grail for them like right to watch the entire series in one sitting Then the next holy grail is how many people actually completed the show, because some people start shows, but don't finish so we may disagree on How long an episode should be the order of the scenes. 


tuation where they'll ask me [: 00:33:00

Simon K: Okay, that's, it's good to hear that actually, because you can see how some documentaries can get steered in a different direction, and the narrative totally changes, and maybe if it's a young and upcoming director, they don't have so much control, and we hear a different story, and maybe that's not what they intended. 


Joe Berlinger: Yeah, no, I never have those kinds of battles to me. I think they've been good to work with. It's been a great combination. I've done 16 shows for them in about four or five years. Most of them have been in the top 10, if not the number one doc that week and I reach a lot of people. 


asn't all these networks and [: 00:34:00

The whole idea of a docs, docu series, that didn't exist when I was first coming into making films. I mean, literally, the only games in town were HBO and PBS. And, the first five years, first, Almost 10 years of my career The way I really made money was as a TV commercial director because documentaries were not very lucrative Making Brothers Keeper in Paradise Lost Enhanced my reputation so that in the TV commercial business I was considered a cool filmmaker who you know, in addition to commercials. 


I'm a cool filmmaker. So that helped me get more TV commercial directing jobs, but the documentaries themselves were not big money makers, you know So now it's a real business Now there's many outlets, many ways to get your documentaries made. It's a whole, it's a whole different environment. 


[: 00:34:55

Simon K: Are there any untold stories or issues that you'd like to tackle without giving away [00:35:00] too much 


Joe Berlinger: away? Yeah. Look, I'll, one of the great things about having a career that you're passionate about and that is creative is I'll never retire. I mean, you know, what is, what is retirement, Making films is a lifestyle that I certainly don't ever want to leave. 


So I have many, many ideas that I am thinking about and wanting to do. It's been an endless university for me, just entering into people's lives at the. Right moment and you get to witness things that most people don't get to witness because you have a camera in your hand it's a wonderful existence 


Simon K: on the John Beñet Ramsey thing How long ago did you wrap filming on that? 


Do we see it like nowadays does it move much faster that you wrap filming and it's released within a few months or how? Long ago. Did you finish 


Joe Berlinger: we handed that show in about eight months ago? 


Simon K: So by the time that show comes out or others like it, you're maybe into other projects at that stage too. 


Joe Berlinger: Oh yeah, I've already shot two things since we handed, uh, handed JonBenet in. Two more Netflix shows. 


unds like it's going to be a [: 00:36:00

Joe Berlinger: Cool, I hope so. 


Yeah, I hope people tune in November 25th is the 


release date. 


Simon K: Very good. Joe Berlinger, it's been fabulous to talk to you and it's been really interesting to go back a little bit over your career and everything. And we want to say well done and we commend you for all your work. 


Joe Berlinger: You did a great job asking questions. 


Simon K: Thank you very much. Joe Berlinger, everybody. 


Joe Berlinger: Thank you. Take care. 


[: 00:36:30

Simon K: Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Joe Berlinger. That was a fascinating interview. As a big fan of your work over the years, we It's been a pleasure to interview today and to find out some behind the scenes things that we never knew about. 


And there's so many cases, the Whitey Bulger, the John Bonnet Ramsey, the Metallica documentary, all amazing. I've always been enthralled by all of this and your work in general. So thank you very much for coming on the show and thank you for giving us your time. And we know the listeners will enjoy this interview. 


ell. Thank you very much for [: 00:37:00

[00:37:24] Music outro